Curse

Tuna · Jul 05, 2005, 07:07 PM // 19:07

You didn't factor in strength bonuses while using skills. This is important as the axe warrior used roughly twice as many skills as the sword.

Zeru · Jul 05, 2005, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Sword is better for conditions and burst/spike damage.
Axe is better for raw dps over time.
Hammer does weakest dps but has knockdowns and good spike with aftershock.

Just look at the skills. Galrath Slash and Final Thrust cost lots of adren but outdamage axe skills per skill hit. Axe skills, most obviously cleave, are there to be spammed and can be sustained for very high dps. And as mentioned, strength is factored in more with axe.

If you think warriors endurance is the way to go, how will you make up for the lack of a +50% attack power due to frenzy?

Ensign · Jul 05, 2005, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

Okay, going to try to make it simple for those non-Math heads out there.

You could, I dunno, drop Cyclone Axe for Dismember and have the numbers come out to be virtually identical.

You know, considering that you're putting in the +10 damage Cyclone Axe for 'max damage' but leave out the +109 damage Dismember.

You also naturally left out critical hits, which is where Axes get most of their damage.

Of course you also left out the -strike from using an adrenal skill, which works against axes, though not as much as factor #1.

(Excuse me if I get a little pissy when people say 'just look at the math!' and proceed to butcher it).

If you actually take the numbers all the way to their conclusions, you'll find that swords to slightly more damage than axes if you assume the bleeding sticks, and slightly less damage than axes if the bleeding does not stick. Swords are completely dependant upon Final Thrust hitting for double as soon as it comes up, consistently.

The two weapons are comparable. I really can't say it any more simply than that.

Peace,
-CxE

UberRusty · Jul 05, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Many pardons, I don't use Axes much so I don't know their skills too well. I just thought those were the main skills people used to inflict mass spike damage.

Didn't know about the critical hit thing either, at level 12 it's 20% crit for axes? :O

NOW COME FORTH THE QUOTING!

Quote:

Deep wounds, weakness, blind are the first to go, then poison and bleed etc. Most conditions arent on for more than 4 seconds, unless you stack the hell out of em. In which case, use mend ailment and shafted.

Yes, nearly all GOOD Monks and W/Mos and the like carry condition removal. However, you must consider this, in "meta game" conditions (or whatever the hell it's called)

1. Most caster/healing classes make a run for it when they get hit. Now condition removals require 1/4 - 1/2 seconds of cast time. Therefore they'll stop, and therefore a Warrior might get one or two hits in before the Monk starts running again.

2. Bleeding can be caused using Sever Artery, which is only 4 hits. And it takes 2 seconds or whatnot for Mend Ailment to recharge, so you won't be spamming it AS mucho, and even if you do, it's likely that you will remove some other conditions first such as a Ranger's POISON arrows, before you actually remove my bleeding.

3. And erm, the third thing is, Warriors do run quite the mile in HoH and PvP due to "oh there goes a runner" Monk/Eles, and therefore bleeding is quite a good condition to have on them if you can't catch up and swipe them.

Quote:

You didn't factor in strength bonuses while using skills. This is important as the axe warrior used roughly twice as many skills as the sword.

Yes, I know I didn't, but in that case I would have to have some sort of armor value... and... I'm not exactly the mathwiz.

DON'T HURT MY POOR BRAIN!

So basically in conclusion, I'm going to say you really can't compare the damage of a sword and axe BLOW for BLOW, but rather this:

Axe for bigger numbers when you hit.
Swords for smaller numbers, but maybe some other hidden conditions.

That's all. :P

wallin · Jul 05, 2005, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still fairly new to this game. The way Deep Wound is being talked about here doesn't seem to match what I believe it to do.

Going on the assumption of 500 max health, 20% of 500 is 100, bringing the max health to 400.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UberRusty

Gash (+9 dmg, causes deepwound, meaning -20% less health, which means 109 dmg)

In order to do Gash, you have to have hit 7 times already (7 adrenaline req). Having hit 7 times, at the average damage, you would have done 129.5, which is greater than the 100 that Deep Wound can do. This means that the effectives of deep wound in that attack is negated (your current health is already 20% below your maximum). So that Gash is now only doing an extra 9 damage.

Sword is now 294 dmg.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solais

So taking Rusty's test scenario...

170 (base damage)
16 (per swift chop on hit)
124 (eviscerate) (3 swings after Sever Artery)
34 (penetrating blow x 2) (2 swings after Gash, 1 swing before Galrath Slash)
34 (executioner's strike) (3 swings before Final Thrust)
378

Same thing here. Eviscerate has an adrenaline requirement of 7, so 7 attacks must have already happened. Assuming average damage of an axe (17.5), that 122.5 damage, bringing their current health below the 20% of their max health that deep wound does. Deep Wound again doesn't add damage. Eviscerate only does 24 damage in that case.

So basically, it looks like the two weapons do about the same damage (using the damage from the axe example Rusty had. Solais example argues for swift chops, but rusty's could just as easily include seeking blade.)

At least, this is according to my understanding of Deep Wound. Let me know if I'm incorrect.

Kurow · Jul 05, 2005, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Ok, im only part warrior, and this whole axe thing has piqued my interest.
My current build is:[R/W]

Apply Poison
Seeking Blade
Sever Artery
Gash
Shield Stance
Gladiator's Defense
Troll Unguent
Rez Signet
My calculations suggest that this build does 504(not taking the -20% health into consideration, cuz it probably doesnt do any good by the time i use gash) damage in aloted 13 seconds, but do to the armor that wasnt taken into consideration, i dont think much of this calculation stuff does us any good.
This build is pretty good at killing people, and i almost never lose to warriors, especially when they got no monks to heal them. This axe thing looks intriguing, but i need a balanced sonsumption between mana and adrenaline.

UberRusty · Jul 05, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Ok, im only part warrior, and this whole axe thing has piqued my interest.
My current build is:[R/W]

Apply Poison
Seeking Blade
Sever Artery
Gash
Shield Stance
Gladiator's Defense
Troll Unguent
Rez Signet
My calculations suggest that this build does 504(not taking the -20% health into consideration, cuz it probably doesnt do any good by the time i use gash) damage in aloted 13 seconds, but do to the armor that wasnt taken into consideration, i dont think much of this calculation stuff does us any good.
This build is pretty good at killing people, and i almost never lose to warriors, especially when they got no monks to heal them. This axe thing looks intriguing, but i need a balanced sonsumption between mana and adrenaline.

Sorry if this is offensive, it's not, but could you save your build for LATER in the dicussion when people have settled their opinions about Sword vs. Axe, or put this in a whole new thread?

Anyway, since you've posted it, might as well comment. If you're a R/W you might want to look to the possible combo of:

"Apply Poison + Cyclone Axe + Victory is Mine! = LOLOLOLOL DATZ SO CREZY"

You said you needed a balanced consumption of mana and aldrenaline. Well, Victory is Mine gets you 5 mana (for each foe with a condition on it, that means poison for you

) back AND heals you for quite a bit, especially if you're fightning mobs, while dealing a bit of area damage as well.

ICURADik · Jul 05, 2005, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Who gives a ****. Hammers own in PvP. End of story.

wallin · Jul 05, 2005, 08:59 PM // 20:59

In response to #46

I wonder why you have both gladiator's defense and shield stance? Is it simply to put one up when the other runs out?

As it is, the only things you're using adrenaline for are Gash (which like you say isn't doing much) and Sever Artery.

If you were to take an axe route to your attacks, I'd say penetrating blow, executioner's strike, and swift chop would be a nice replacement.

The tradeoff:
With sword, Sever Artery causes bleeding on the fifth hit, leave 6.5 seconds of bleeding damage. which is about 21 (rounded up) damage. Gash, used once, does another 9 damage (not taking into account the Deep Wound). Total 30

With axe, executioner's will do 34, penetrating blow will do 17 (plus some more from penetration), for at least 51. I'm assuming swift chop and seeking blade balance each other out (and that seeking blade didn't make the bleeding start ealier, although if it starts on that first hit, you get another 21 damage max, for a total of 51 max).

Now, there is a 15 base damage difference, but in my opinion, it will be made up for by the critical power of axes (I believe criticals are based off of max damage, which is where the axe strength is). So in the end, you've once again probably got it balancing out.

Or, as Rusty pointed out, trade your gladiator for victory is mine, and put cyclone axe in there instead of swift chop, and you're pretty well of.

Enigmatics · Jul 06, 2005, 01:24 PM // 13:24

I'm going to give another perspective -versus another warrior. I'll assume this warrior has 500 max health and 400 AR. Because most custom built warriors have brain stems, I'll also assume they use mend ailment (which, by the way makes bleeding do around 4 damage before they notice it). This is a measurement of spike damage from the sword warrior's Galrath Slash, Pure Strike and Final Thrust, as well as the axe warrior's Cleave, Swift Chop, And Executioners Strike. This is a chart of all skills being used twice

Average axe damage is 18 damage
Average sword damage is 18.5 damage

Both warriors have maxed swordmanship and axe mastery

For simplicity's sake I'll have each use their energy attack skills only once.

Hit # Axe Warrior Sword Warrior Hit damage
1 Swift Chop Pure strike 35/42.5
2 Normal Normal 18/18.5
3 Normal Normal 18/18.5
4 Normal Normal 18/18.5 309
5 Cleave Normal 40/18.5 342
6 Normal Normal 18/18.5
7 Normal Normal 18/18.5
8 Normal Normal 18/18.5
9 Normal GalrathS. 18/50.5
10 Cleave Normal 40/18.5
11 Exe. Strike Normal 50/18.5
12 Normal Final Thrust 18/82.5
TOTAL: 342 TOTAL: 309

Sword warrior wins. However, since I wasn't sure if the attack speed of swords and axes is 1.33 seconds, I can't incorporate cyclone axe in there. If I did, Seeking blade would be in too, and the damage would be almost identical.

On paper, swords look more powerful, but somehow axes outdamage them on guild wars -I've used both weapons. I'm pretty sure the critical hits will also be a factor.

UGH, sorry you can't read my chart -I forgot about how you can't format type by only spacing.

suzumebachi · Jul 07, 2005, 08:31 AM // 08:31

i'm very intrigued by this discussion. i started a second PvE character (W/Mo) and i've JUST finished ascension...

currently i'm using hammer mastery, but i'm not sure i like it.. the knockdown/interrupt is nice, but: a) it's slow, b) it's seemingly weak, c) having -16 armor kinda sucks.

here are my current stats (no runes, and i have yet to complete the two +15 attribute quests):

Healing - 10
Strength - 9
Hammer Mastery - 11

Anyone got any pointers on what to do with this build? Hell, I'm not even sure I want to stick with healing.

I used axe mastery early on in the game, and liked it quite a bit, but it's been a long time since I've found a decent axe to use. And I'd definately end up basing what armor to craft on the weapon I decide to use..

Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

Da Cebuano · Jul 07, 2005, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Problem is you're looking at hammer from a PvE outlook, in which I agree, at high level PvE hammers are the suck! VS lv24-30monsters, you'll roughly be dealing the same dmg as axe/sword users but -16armor and .5 sec slower. At lower levels, hammers do the most dmg and at higher levels, they do the least.

Ofcourse, if you plan to just swing your hammer w/o using the knockdowns skills + Supplements = you suck at hammers. Main point w/ hammer users is the ability to chain. Hammer warrs are the deepest gameplay wise out of the 3. You can have lots of fun w/ a hammer build tactical wise, whereas sword and axe users are all the same.

Also, Hammers truly shine in PvP, owned a lv20 sword user w/ my lv17 hammer warr. Hammers also get the most out of judge's insight, weaken armor and elemental 2ndaries. Knockdowns + slowdowns + dmg/condition while KD = pwn.

Although I gotta say, hammer warrs are the most adrenaline and mana hungry, you'll almost always gotta have a gladiator piece in your armor set.

Also, dont bother w/ expensive +30hp grips on hammer, honestly, you're better off w/ +7 warding or +5defense, if you get attacked while attacking, simply turn around and Knockdown that foe + aftershock/whatever you want.

Also, theres alot of strategy involved in chaining skills. Check out my topic on a hammer build and see some very good suggestions.

~And to stay on topic:

Here's how I see it, as people are focusing WAY TOO MUCH OF DPS and NOT THE WAY EACH WEAPON SHOULD BE IMPLEMENTED ON FIGHTSTYLE. Really, people are so quick to point out the weaknesses in skills when they only focus on the offensive part, not all weapons are built to be the same, us hammer warrs have more insight on this.

First off, AXE gets the most out of STR stat. Yes, they do more dmg in shorted periods of time, you'll only have to look at their elite sklls and dmg ranges to realize that. Its obvious axes were given such extreme minimum/max due to its potential to be broken, on average, axes do less dmg VS sword but deal it faster.

Swords on the other hand are easier to use as you really only have the sever/gash/galrath/final combo. Its too bad about 100blades, it truly sucks balls. However, swords are very easy to use and the fastest dmg deal. Also very balanced in consumption, although for the most part, very high too.

Now heres where people drop the ball, AXES WERE MEANT FOR BERSERKERS WHO WANT TO KILL ASAP WHEREAS SWORDS ARE FOR THOSE WHO KILL AND SURVIVE AT THE SAME TIME.

I already mention axes get the best out of str, but SWORDS GET THE BEST OUT OF TACTICS. People underestimate tactics all the time. they think that 75% block is useless in pvp as they get attacked last, they are just ignorant.

Its all about playstyles, obviously swords were not meant to be played the same way as an axe. On a pure dmg deal wise, Axes can stack faster or slower while swords are always constant. Seriously all you have to do is look at their dmg caps to realize that.

Vladmoney · Jul 07, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

I use my conjure W/E with

11 swords + 1 hat + either 1 or 3 rune = 13 or 15
11 fire
8 strength +1 rune = 9 strength

Zeru · Jul 07, 2005, 07:12 PM // 19:12

For a warrior build you want to do two things:
-Make a build that lets you achieve a high dps (or in case of hammers with knockdown/spike)
-Make sure that you are able to achieve that dps and don't spend all your time running or swinging and missing (team builds here)

From looking at skills/statistics you can generalize the following things:

Hammer has the weakest dps, gives knockdowns, and is pretty poor with conditions. can spike decently with aftershock/repeated knockdown combos.

Sword has the second highest dps and deals the best conditions. They also can spike better than axe due to the power of galrath/final thrust.

Axe is ok on conditions, bad on spike, but gives the highest dps. Axe spams their skills, most noticeably cleave, in order to achieve this.

Hammer builds are generally the most dull and restrictive. Honestly I often have empty skill slots when making a hammer build and I think "what can go in here thats worth it" rather than the usual attitude of "where can i fit in skills x and y for this build."

People don't underestimate tactics; they realize that it's useless except for a select few skills such as fear me!

ZING · Jul 07, 2005, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I don't understand why these arguments are even made. As a n00b character they have some credence, but you can spec around anything in this game. ANYTHING. That SHOULD be crystal clear by now.

Just one example of things we've heard:
"The sword has high damage attack skills but those require high adren".
WELL SPEC AROUND THAT FACT AND YOU GET: Add a furious sword hilt (+1 adren on every strike), become a W.R so you can use Tiger's Fury (attack 33% faster) and voila; near spam'able Galrath Slash, and an always ready to use Final Thrust.

There's a cost/benifit to everything though. Sure that particular War is the scariest thing to anyone under 50% health, but he probably is lacking in some other area (that you can be sure of). Whatever you spec for, somebody's got a poison for your spec.

Getting back on topic though. The "Ultra - Dmg - Warrior" *IS* an extension of what I just listed above (W.R with Sword). BUT, BUT, BUT. That character is almost totally useless in PvP. You can spec a Sword W.R to take down a lvl 24 hydra in 3-4 seconds, but same War in PvP will be blinded, hexed, crippled, bleeding, poisoned, and almost totally useless to anyone on the field.

Ben Reed · Jul 07, 2005, 08:36 PM // 20:36

I always saw axe versus sword in terms of damage versus versatility.

Sure, about the only thing sword does better than axe is snaring, but with a proper team build, one little snare goes a long way. In PvP, mobility is king, and if you know when to Hamstring somebody, that doesn't just make you more dangerous, that makes your entire team more dangerous, because in addition to being unable to run from you, they can't run from your Mesmers and Necros, and they sure as hell can't run from your Elems.

That being said, I think in serious PvP (Tombs, GvG), axe brings more to the table than sword, because snaring is a lot harder to make use of because you have at least 8 different people to snare, and more high-priority targets to divide your precious Hamstrings between. (Mind you, I have marginal experience at both Tombs and GvG, so I'm basically playing theory fighter here).

In random/team arenas, though, I usually fall back on sword, because with only 4 opponents, it's a lot more practical to keep the entire enemy team staggering around while your Elems zap the crap out of 'em. Gives me a lot more options against different opponents, especially on that stupid lava map where most kills win, where I can cripple people and play a runaway game when we're ahead in kills.

pearhk · Jul 08, 2005, 02:27 AM // 02:27

sorry to interupt here,

i want to ask sth about deep wound,
e.g.
Y has 500hp and now he suffer deep wound (17 sec), --> 400hp

case 1
17 sec later, he recovered, so now he has 500hp or 400hp ?

case 2
5 sec later, he is hit by eviscerate(17 sec deep wound ), so now he suffer 17-5+17 sec deep wound or 17 sec ?

HeroZero · Jul 08, 2005, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I was thinking about making a W/Mes in hopes that it would be good in PvP/GvG...are my hopes well founded? Or should I stick with a W/N or W/Ele?

Tuna · Jul 08, 2005, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Axes do the most dps, however you have to use it correctly. The major advantage axe has over sword is the number for attack skills (particularly adren). If you use frenzy or for great justice you can spam cleave, pen blow, etc. pretty dang well. This means you strength attribute is being used often, which is a good thing. The only mildly good spamable skills on a sword warrior are sever and gash. Sever doesn't add any damage so its only usefull past the first hit for str bonus. Gash is a pretty decent skill all around though the axe skills are much better. The key to axes is to spam those adren skills as fast as possible and hope your target doesn't run. As mentioned by someone else, swords have entirely different play style. They also have the advantage of hamstring. Final Blow is a decent skill but it can hardly be counted towards dps as its far from spamable. Hammers lead into another completely different play style but I can say less about them than I did about sword warriors

Also, sword warrior elites suck for spamming (flourish is argueable) which leads to lower dps. I think its kind of stupid how axe and sword have 2 elites each, hammer has 4, tactics has a few, and strength has something like 8.

Enigmatics · Jul 08, 2005, 08:01 PM // 20:01

I almost forgot about flourish. I've seen some builds that use that to effect. Pity it won't affect adrenal skills in any way. Using hamstring is being oblivious to the environment. Even on a sword warrior i'd rather use sprint for the cheaper energy cost and versatility it provides, unless I was specifically tuned to hunt down soft targets.